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Poster: He Live's Date: Oct 4, 2007 9:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: How good is Bob? JOTS cont'd...

i dont know if i clearly KNOW a DAMN THING!! i just love BOB, as a musician anyway.

WT-have you know instances of bob's playing in the primal years?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 4, 2007 9:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: How good is Bob? JOTS cont'd...

That's what I was saying to JOTS earlier. Now I don't have a good ear, can't hear Bob clearly much of the time, etc., etc., BUT regularly (well, after listening 10 times) I do in fact catch him in ChinaCat, or OOne or a few others, doing something that really grabs me. Usually due to the mix--it just seems obvious it is him, whereas usually I miss it.

Can't point to particular shows if that's what you wanted, but it happens more and more.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Apr 23, 2008 8:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: How good is Bob? JOTS cont'd...

alright...well....jerry and bobby usually end up in different speakers, left and right...

in the handle i linked bobby is center right, jerry is center left channel, like how they stood on stage....for any given show you should be able to break it down like that...pick a song where you know ahead of time who plays what part. identify the channel you hear that part in. it should hold through the whole show...let';s see.....

here;s a truckin' opener, jerry center left, bobby center right:

gd71-12-14.sbd.deibert.12763.sbeok.shnf d1t01

here's a goody, dancin '70, jerry left, bobby right, almost complete seperation (try listening with only one earpiece on at a time):

gd70-04-15.sbd.kaplan.14354.sbeok.shnf d1t14


OKOKOK...i think part of the problem for you, WT, is #1 you are so deep into the early years when there is less/NO left/right stereo seperation in the recordings...and #2, the era you love is bobby's weakest or at least his least developed, obviously this all makes sense. to me however, his contribution is no less because of a lack of techinical skill during these early years. OF COURSE, jerry and phill were the main protagonists...they were on a different level, and really 67-69, they are so agressive there is little room for poor you bob to interject, but by 1972 and thereafter bobby had really caught up technically.

i think bob's playing on this GORGEOUS recording of Dark Star from The Ark, 1969 is very discernable, though the recording is mono. if you really are having a hard time picking him out he really stands out at 13:54....as jerry comes to the end of a long statement...

gd69-04-23.sbd.wise.70.sbeok.shnf d1t04

while it is indeed hard to pick up bob during The Eleven...here from later in the same show i think he really adds to this pre-eleven jam

gd69-04-23.sbd.wise.70.sbeok.shnf d3t02

right at about 1:30...he is really hanging with jer well who sounds possessed....(what a show!!!!!!....and the recording is just a jaw dropper aint it)

CHEERS WT

This post was modified by He Live's on 2007-10-05 06:07:23

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2008-04-23 15:51:44

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 5, 2007 7:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: How good is Bob? JOTS cont'd...

Whoaa is right, Light--thanks for all the addt'l commentary, He Lives! Great stuff. Yes--I think you are right that part of it is my being lost in shows for which separation is not as consistently available. But, I have been of late, doing just as you advise--listening to one channel at a time, focusing on who is "where" in sonic space, etc. I have been doing this as much to evaluate "show quality" (detecting drop outs, etc.), and sometimes convince myself that channels have been "played" with (or it's just my system), discovering for one show vocals are all coming from one channel, and then the next show they are split (Jerry to the left, Bob to the right), and then both combined but in both channels, etc. Point being, I find it odd that the "structure" of the mic leads would change from one show to the next, or that the SBD would be so different from one to the next or that I am just a moron that can't hear correctly.

As and example, I get the latest 5-15-70 show SBDs, and the first 9 acoustic songs have NO right channel, and the notes state this is "real" and the MP3s I had all this time were "corrected" by shunting the same channel signal thru both--sounding great (?) but a false sense of a two channel original.

Will try to do better at this--it is an acquired art (listening well).

Thanks again--love Apr 69, so off to the 23rd!

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Poster: He Live's Date: Oct 5, 2007 8:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: How good is Bob? JOTS cont'd...

WT & Light Into Ashes:

i think we covered this pretty well....and WT, i know precious little about recording methods, stereo separation, michrophone setups and the rest...

BTW, there must be some more detail on the whole "throw out bob and pig scenario" in the jerry biography perhaps??...however, having played in some bands with people of varying skill levels it is not an unusual occurence at all, quite expexted really -- but in the end, the PERSONAL BOND reigns supreme in a creative endeavor such as the grateful dead, and it is quickly apparent to any more than the casual listener that bob was key to their sound, success and longevity.

bobby got pretty cheesey at times, but his good contributions outweighed these mis-steps of taste, by far....IMHO

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Poster: blacklakelight Date: Oct 5, 2007 9:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: How good is Bob? JOTS cont'd...


From my experiences in bands, it's a wonder any one has ever stayed together past five years.

I like Bob, I value Bob and appreciated the ways in which his playing evolved over the years. There are Bobby songs I don't like ("Looks Like Rain," ugh, and I never liked "Good Lovin'" or "Dancin'" either, not to mention the Picasso Victim stuff) but the WRS and Playin's more than make up. Also love Big Rivers, El Pasos, and always been a fan of Black Throated Wind.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Oct 7, 2007 8:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: More GOOD LOVIN Jams 1970-71

i agree...BUT

while the post hiatus Good Lovin;s I TOO find ....not so good....DON'T IGNORE the pigpen lead affairs of 70 and 71...some nights, good lovin was practically the centerpiece jam...stretching out to nearly 20 minutes!!...the one i put up from 7-2-1970 above is one of my favorite dead jams...

check this, from 12-10-71....and check bobby, right channel...comes nice and tasty into the jam at 2:30 and really takes off, even gets a little solo space from the band...i wish i had linked this one yesterday...KEITH forces this one into PLAYIN' IN THE BAND circa 1972 territory at about 4:00...this is just a great jam, A VERY HOT early keith show...he took them quickly in a more expansive and jazzy direction and bobby sounds perfectly instep...REALLY NICE JAM:

gd71-12-10.sbd.yerys.1311.sbeok.shnf d2t01

tell me you didnt like that one hombre??? good lovin aint so bad now is it....

please everyone, link hot good lovin from these key years....

This post was modified by He Live's on 2007-10-06 03:25:16

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2007-10-07 15:53:00

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Oct 6, 2007 6:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More GOOD LOVIN Jams 1970-71

Couple more...

Very well jammed, high-energy, how could you guys miss this one?

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-02-28.sbd.cotsman.9377.sbeok.shnf


Bonus 1969 - Jer vocals

http://www.archive.org/details/gd69-08-29.sbd.cotsman.8996.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: He Live's Date: Oct 8, 2007 8:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More GOOD LOVIN Jams 1970-71

noted mr hucker...on the todo list

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Oct 6, 2007 3:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More GOOD LOVIN Jams 1970-71

April '71 was a key month for Good Lovin' - most of them aren't here anymore - but here's a long one:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd71-04-13.sbd.unknown.32015.sbeok.flacf

Couple nice versions in March '71 too, including this one:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd71-03-14.sbd.cole.6115.sbeok.shnf

And here's a great example of a Europe '72 Good Lovin':

http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-04-29.aud.vernon.5250.sbeok.shnf

This early '72 show also has a notable Good Lovin' with an early Mind Left Body jam:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-03-05.sbd.miller.20739.sbeok.shnf

And this one I love just because it's the only Good Lovin>China>Rider>Good Lovin', which is just about perfect!

http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-01-02.sbd.eD.8709.sbeok.shnf

The Dead started doing the long "rap" versions of Good Lovin' at the end of 1970, in shows such as these:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-11-29.aud.hanno.7592.sbeok.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-12-12.sbd.clugston.5985.sbeok.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-12-26.sbd.miller.22369.sbeok.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-12-28.aud.fink.17706.sbeok.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-12-31.sbd-fm.7283.sbeok.shnf

And for Dancing in the Streets, these are some of the key versions of 1970:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-04-12.sbd.kaplan.3820.sbeok.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-04-15.sbd.kaplan.14354.sbeok.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-05-06.sbd.gans.94.sbefail.shnf

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-09-18.bootleg.evans.100.sbeok.shnf

Well, that's enough for now.....

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Poster: blacklakelight Date: Oct 6, 2007 7:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More GOOD LOVIN Jams 1970-71


Holy freakin' nuck-fluck! Some listening to do! Thanks very much both of you, it'll be a couple days before I can listen to all of these but I will, and I'll let you know me thoughts.

Have a great weekends.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Oct 6, 2007 8:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More GOOD LOVIN Jams 1970-71

thanks man, a very comprehensive reply i must say!

i am hip to some of those like the catholic youth center show and the gig with the GL>china cat>GL....both just great....but you cited a bunch of shows i haven't checked....and i will.

i have thought of trying to make a mix of the dead's early r&b/motown jams....my idea is to make a continuous hour long mix, meshing together different good lovin's, dancin's and maybe some hard to handle and lovelight thrown in....

i especially like the jams where our man bobby goes into the "tighten' up" chords...it opens up the jam really nice.

CHEERS!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 6, 2007 12:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: More GOOD LOVIN Jams 1970-71

Well, this thread keeps giving and giving...narry a troublemaking diversion. Good job all!

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Oct 5, 2007 4:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: How good is Bob? JOTS cont'd...

Very good comments!
Jerry is more noticeable just by being the lead guitarist - he was the 'voice' of the Dead, and his lines always stand out.
I think the magic of the Dead is the way the three guitars blend together - the rest (keyboards, voices etc) is often just distracting decoration for me.
But Weir was a really skilled guitarist within the blend. I can't be really specific. But when I listen even to '67 shows like 9-3-67 - the team of Weir & Lesh is hypnotic, he just seems to be playing the right stuff. And in the early '68 shows he is coming up with all sorts of creative things. So it surprises me that Garcia & Lesh wanted to drop him later in the year. (Part of it may be that he wasn't a composer yet, didn't really contribute to Aoxomoxoa at all, compared to his heavy showing on Anthem.)
There are lots of spots in the '69 shows where Garcia stops playing (broken string, or waiting for the right moment, or whatnot) and it's just Weir & Lesh jamming away - I think even without Garcia they still would've been a magical rhythm band. (8-30-69 has a couple good examples, in the Dark Star and the Eleven.)
Weir didn't do much 'lead' work within the Dead - one example would be the Easy Winds from 1970, where he gets the first solo and sounds pretty good to me. (China Cat is a not-so-good example, because he always starts the transition, but he plays the same damn thing every time.) But even when he's just playing the chord backing, he has all kinds of little fills and semi-lead parts that is building up what Garcia does.
And of course, later on Weir started composing a lot of the Dead's 'jam' songs - in fact, after the hiatus I think most of the Dead's jamming material came from Weir. While the actual tunes & singing might be excruciating for me, he gave the Dead a lot of challenging music, kind of 'prog-rock' in a way, that became highlights of the shows.
Anyway, in the early shows there are a lot of times when he's kind of buried - sometimes the mix, sometimes just the way he plays, blending in so well. And I admit there are a lot of times, even in '72-74, when he just stops playing during the jams and lets Garcia & Lesh do their thing. (Could be he felt in over his head sometimes, but I think he often had to play the hardest parts - how do you spontaneously choose strong & interesting chords to fill a 30-minute Dark Star?) And, now that I think of it, there are way too many times where he got impatient with a long jam and headed straight to the nearest country tune....the others were good sports when that happened.

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Poster: Lou Davenport Date: Oct 5, 2007 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: How good is Bob? JOTS cont'd...

There's a nice example of the Lesh/Weir jamming after Jerry breaks a string towards the end of my favorite The Eleven from 2-28-69; then Jerry comes back and solos a bit before they transition to Death Don't.

And hey, He Live's--I am embarrassed to confess that I had originally thought you were one of the 2 alter-egos, based on the misplaced apostrophe in your user name (well, I take it to be misplaced anyway). Also, I think some of your early posts may have been brief and a bit flip. But 2 couldn't possibly make as much sense as you have, nor write with so few grammatical errors. So my apologies for the mistake!